Glow BULL WAR ming

[Pineygirl]

Here's the comparison. I thought you were smart enough to see it. You said:

So in this vastness of space, so infinitesimally large, larger than the human mind could ever possibly understand, how is it that you've come to tell me that the universe has cycles of temperature?

I respond:

So in the vastness of time, so infinitesimally long, longer than the human mind could ever possibly understand, how is it that you've come to tell me that human beings evolved from a piece of protoplasm?

I just wondered how you can believe one and not the other, that's all.

[Arius]

Originally Posted by oldhardhead

Do we have the right to exhale? If we do, we are emitting Carbon Dioxide, a greenhouse, into the atmosphere! We have to right to pollute!

Do we have a right to keep any of our earnings after taxes? How much?

The government cannot "ensure your safety."

Funny how you see "common defense" as an abuse and at the same time believe the government has an obligation to ensure your safety...

OHH, when you need to degrade the conversation to an infantile level, you cease to matter.

I see the obligation to ensure my safety as a matter of protecting the public from real hazards. Unfortunately, that same obligation has resulted into an abuse of power unparalleled in modern history.

I have always stated I wish we could go back to natural selection...and that would give me the right to destroy any business I see as a threat to my safety. However, since there are laws that prevent such action, one can only step back at ask Big Brother for assistance...to protect us from those greedy business owners who would poison our air, our water, our land all for a buck. Perhaps you can't see the difference, but I would think most could.

Invading a sovereign nation innocent of being a threat to us is not ensuring my safety, or yours, it is a violation of humanity and international law. If you conservatives were all about law and order as you said when you prosecuted Clinton for lying about a blow job, you would haul Bush and Cheney in front of a judge and jury without question.

But I forgot, you are "do as I say, not as I do" conservatives. Sorry for confusing you guys with real conservatives (my apologies Blocker AGAIN).

Anyway, until I have the right to protect myself from the greedy, I ask that Big Brother do it for me.

[SheriB]

Ah, much better. It was hard to make your point for you, and argue it. I appreciate filling in the vagueness.

Your answer comes in your question: So in the vastness of time, so infinitesimally long, longer than the human mind could ever possibly understand...

The suggestion that the universe has temperature cycles spits in the face of all of modern science for the following reasons:

1) We cannot know what the temperature is of planets in not yet discovered galaxies, because they have not been discovered (Space, says the introduction to the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind bogglingly big it is. And so on. ).

2) Even if we did know of every galaxy and planet in the universe (which is always expanding) it would be physically impossible to get temperature readings. The "Universe" is largely empty space. We are just now learning about dark matter, and only know of it's existence because of its effects on it's surroundings, not through any visual cues. If the temperature of the universe was cyclical, dark matter would certainly demonstrate the cycle. But how do you take temperature readings of something that has no presence besides gravitational? You could argue that stars exhibit the cycle of temperatures. However, we only know of our own sun's estimated temperature because of the perceived light coming from it's exterior. If we used this to gauge other stars, our readings would tell us approximately how hot the given star was 2 million years ago, not it's current temperature in relation to our own.

3) Let's say that the universe (dark matter, stars, or however else you want to quantify an unquantifiable object) is changing temperatures and we can gauge the temperature change. What, then, do you compare these temperatures to? In order for there to be a cycle, we must have something to reference. Since we have only been in existence for a fraction of a blink of an eye with respect to the whole universe, it would be very impractical to have any kind of reference period.

Now evolution shares many of the same issues as number 3. In order for someone to document evolution, they must monitor a species for hundreds of life times. However, we have seen viruses evolve, species adapt, and traits reproduce themselves time and time again.

Besides, one theory (read: A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena.) is better than none at all. Especially compared to the flying spaghetti monster suggestion.

[Pineygirl]

First of all, I thought we were talking about warming and cooling cycles on earth. We have evidence of that aplenty, apparently in the ice floes themselves as well as in rock, plants, etc.

You also wrote:

we have seen viruses evolve, species adapt, and traits reproduce themselves time and time again.

That is microevolution. Viruses evolve into different viruses. Dogs evolve into different dogs. Traits reproduce themselves within species time and time again.

We have absolutely no proof that one species ever evolved into another.

[Arius]

Originally Posted by Pineygirl

I just wondered how you can believe one and not the other, that's all.

I saw one statement as questioning what YOU believe...not a statement of what Sheri believes.

Second, one can be easily believed and understood, and the other, well, just seems lost to matters of a time when man believed that fire was a god and water was an element.

[Arius]

Originally Posted by Pineygirl

First of all, I thought we were talking about warming and cooling cycles on earth. We have evidence of that aplenty, apparently in the ice floes themselves as well as in rock, plants, etc.

You also wrote:

That is microevolution. Viruses evolve into different viruses. Dogs evolve into different dogs. Traits reproduce themselves within species time and time again.

We have absolutely no proof that one species ever evolved into another.

Piney, you must admit there is much more proof that we evolved from something than there is we are created from earth and that each of us was spawned from an incestuous relationship. Plus, if you see the scientific evidence of what early man evolved from...you would hardly doubt that creature was informed enough as to know not to eat his own feces, let alone from a tree that gave him worldly knowledge.

There is nothing in either discussion that could be proven...except that science knows the earth and universe were not created in 6 days...which kind of leads the story of Genesis astray even from the beginning. The fact that anyone would care to either believe in that story or prove it false shows how far we have to go before we truly know our purpose.

[Pineygirl]

There is nothing in either discussion that could be proven...except that science knows the earth and universe were not created in 6 days

The exception has not been proven, either.
Virtually nothing can be proven when you're talking about such ancient history, in addition to the fact that the original event is not repeatable, so it cannot be studied.
All they have is theories, just as religious believers have.
It's all a matter of faith, so let's be honest about it.

[Arius]

If we are going to be "honest about it", then we need to be completely honest, and not just honest about the side that seems to speak to the way we were raised, indoctrinated, or coached to believe.

Evolution as a means of origin remains a theory, no one says it is a law, and no one says that it is completely accurate. It still remains much more plausible than the Genesis story, of which a fraction can't be even verified. True, that does not mean it did not happen, but given DNA evidence that we closely resemble other mammals it would seem plausible to say that we came from the same source. That source can be left open to conjecture, and certainly will be difficult to prove for the fathomable future.

Evolution as a means of creation is certainly provable, as fossilized species can be examined to see how modern species "evolved" into what we know of today. In fact, the "theory" of evolution as a means of origin has been extrapolated from the proof of species evolution.

If a person was to logically look at the evidence of either, it would be hard to go with Genesis, it just doesn't fit the evidence at all, whereas evolution at least fits in most cases. In truth, most religious folk tend to fear that if Genesis isn't true, then the Old Testament may not be, and that is often too much for them to bear.

I simply choose not to really care. Ultimately, it will not effect my NOW...no matter which NOW I find myself present in. It doesn't effect my relationship with God, as I can see evolution as God's continued influence on creation. I need not believe in Eden, incest, a serpent, original sin or that the universe was built in 6 days in order to have this relationship. In fact, the relationship I have tends to tell me that the words in a book mean little compared to the silence that allows them to be.

Your attachment to the Book, well it means little, offers less, and matters none. The attachment to the message is often overlooked by the reliance on the validity of the book, a foolish plight of man that simply hinders his understanding. Regardless, it matters little to me, just as a horse following a carrot on a stick matters little...as long as the horse and the carrot mind their own business they can run in circles all day if they wish.

[Pineygirl]

...given DNA evidence that we closely resemble other mammals it would seem plausible to say that we came from the same source. That source can be left open to conjecture, and certainly will be difficult to prove for the fathomable future.

It would also be plausible to say that a creator used similar materials and techniques to create the mammals.

See? Once you escape the box of dogmatic scientific thinking you can come up with all sorts of alternatives. And the one above is no more or less provable -- or illogical -- than the orthodox view.

[Arius]

Originally Posted by Pineygirl

It would also be plausible to say that a creator used similar materials and techniques to create the mammals.

See? Once you escape the box of dogmatic scientific thinking you can come up with all sorts of alternatives. And the one above is no more or less provable -- or illogical -- than the orthodox view.

Coming up with alternatives doesn't mean we should base our beliefs on possibilities, does it? What makes your faith any better than the belief that your lineage began with primates? Ultimately, YOU could be right...or you could be WRONG...and yet you will live and die and fade away regardless. In the end, none of it matters except for that little part of you that doesn't exist in a single celled organism...that part of you that can't see beyond your reality.

That's just it, we delve too often in WHAT COULD BE and overlook what IS in the process. No one can prove a faith (that is what makes it faith)...but all the points and counter points simply diverts our attention from what is...the here and now...the present...the moment we now share.

Your "faith" and what you believe to be right is no better or no worse than ANYONE'S...yet you hold on to it like we all need to live up to the standard (or down to it, depending on our current state). You create a standard and then judge the world based on it, yet that standard, that belief, that faith and your "right" cannot be proven nor even seen as REAL by all who you interact with.

Whatever the truth really is, and none of us know for sure, all it PROVES is that we are truly only guaranteed THIS MOMENT...nothing more, nothing less. The past can even change with this moment as your perception of it changes. Yet here is this moment, the only truth you will EVER know for sure.

Hopefully, someday, we will all have evolved into a state of being that leaves our personal desires, wants, and beliefs where they belong, as that part of us that only matters to that part of us. It need not be shared, enforced or even discussed.

How sweet would that be?